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The reading and video were full of ways to identify trained vs. amateur. As the directions say to list examples I’ll list some off.
- Motor unit activation- “Untrained people cannot recruit all their fast twitch motor units” (Zatsiorsky, 1995, p. 61)
- Efficient CNS System- Amateurs do not have the intramuscular coordination to display efficient force production during maximal efforts (Zatsiorsky, 1995, P. 64-65)
- Kinesthetic sense- An Amateur athlete must use the voluntary nervous system to assist in integrating the huge amount of information from all kinesthetic systems. A trained athlete will be able to rely on the automatic and reflexive process to manage the same task. (Siff, 2004, p.70)
In the video, John touched on an athlete’s ability to “grind” through a rep as a sign of a trained athlete. This eluded to the athlete having a trained CNS. This links back to number two on my list above from Zatsiorsky. Stating, the amateur doesn’t have the intramuscular coordination to possess the ability to “grind” through the rep.
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1. Even highly trained athletes cannot access all of their fast twitch fibers. The recruitment will be determined by force demands and amateur athletes are not moving the weight or at the velocity that trained athletes are.
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@benkuch I agree with all of those but when I read this question and see “most effective” I take that as “low hanging fruit” or easiest ways to tell. I would contest that, “Efficient CNS System- Amateurs do not have the intramuscular coordination to display efficient force production during maximal efforts”, we won’t see this for quite some time as we aren’t taking amateurs up to true maximal effort attempts. While this is a true statement I wouldn’t consider it “low hanging fruit”. Again that was my perception of the question.
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@benkuch I agree with what you are sharing about John’s video. Something I want to put out there is that it seems that when we talk about amateurs our minds immediately go to young people. I work with all levels of athletes and the majority of them are mid 30’s early 40’s and you would be amazed on how many of those people are Amateurs even if they played sports in high school and college. Some have never experienced what a true 1RM/3RM/5RM feels like and either because of biological safety mechanisms (spindles and golgi tendon) or because of poor mindset they have never gone there before. I’ve created some cheating ways to push them(of course when they are ready to lift heavy), one of them is this guy I train privately he obsesses on how much he is about to lift. So I send him to a corner and I say yes I put baby in a corner! He is facing the wall while I load up his bar. When he comes back he goes and lifts with out looking I do this until he successfully achieves the task. After that I let him count his weights. I agree with all of you on how much influences an amateur athlete. I’m just happy to know that there are more coaches that think the same way I do… DON’T BE THE LIMITING FACTOR!
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John touched on the differences between an amateur athlete and a trained athlete by how they perform movement patterns from rep to rep. The trained athlete gets in and performs perfectly right out of the gate, because that is what they have trained to do. The amateur athlete will struggle with the first rep and gradually improve with each consecutive rep. This has to do with the athletes ability to develop a meaningful kinaesthetic sense and reliable proprioception. This kinaesthetic sense “provides essential information to the brain to enable movements to be performed by the relevant muscles and limbs in specific patterns at a certain velocity and intensity,” (Siff. 70). Having time and reps under a barbell will allow the athlete to develop a proprioception about how their joints are positioned and move under stress/weight. What I found fascinating was “proprioception is second only to pain in causing the most intense widespread electrical activity in the brain,” (Siff. 70). Muscle memory, much like what @benkuch was speaking of in his 3rd point, is ingrained as it develops and the trained athlete will not struggle the way an amateur will to produce effective movement patterns. Whereas, “the unskilled athlete not only produces inefficient patterns, intensities and timing of movements, but he also recruits muscles which serve no purpose in controlling those movements, (Siff 71). Proprioceptive and kinaesthetic awareness is lacking, but will develop and be autonomic to the athlete as they progress through SAID principles of training.
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I think you nailed this topic pretty well. Especially in the intermuscular sense. The awareness of joint position and how they move with weight is a great way to identify the amateur vs. trained. I’m sure we have all seen the athlete who starts lifting and they get all Ricky Bobby on us http://cdn.meme.am/instances/22048802.jpg
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There are a few obvious things should stick out to us right away when identifying an Amateur vs. a Trained athlete.
- The first thing I would look for will be the second they walk in the door and how they act. It is easy to spot right away if they have the right psychological approach to training within the first 15 minutes of meeting/working with an athlete. Zatsiorsky states “If young athletes do not understand why such programs are important or do not have the maturity to participate in a strength training program, success will be limited, and no young athlete should be forced to lift.” (p. 200) You can see right away if they see value in the program by their approach and interest (level of focus). I have also witness kids that did not want to be there at all that were essentially forced by the parents, in this case I have had to call the situation out and have a meeting. Trained athletes do just that, they train. When it is time to work they work. We have many immature teenage kids, but not while they are training, they approach the day with focus and conviction, then fuck around after the workout.
- General lack of coordination all around. Which @benkuch and @menacedolan have covered well, so no need to repeat.
- Constant noticeable progress is indicative of the amateur athlete. We know that a linear style progression program laid out by the “Amateur Program” is best but even without that we can see gains in noobs. Siff backs this statement up when he says “Virtually any methods of strength training will enhance the strength of a novice during the first few months, provided the intensity, in particular, is kept at a safe level.” (p. 95) Once this program is exhausted and stagnation ensues we know it is time to switch the program up.
- Bonus Answer: Lack of knowledge base or understanding of general movements a good training program should utilize. Squating, hinging, pressing, pulling, etc. Let me elaborate. If someone has been “training” and they have no familiarity of foundational movements or Primals then have they really been training or have they just been working out. Someone could workout for years and still be an amateur due to this fact, it is important not to confuse those who have been “working out” with those that have trained.
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I like the bonus answer you put in there. I was a person who did the amateur progression prior to attending a seminar and without a knowledgeable coach. For that reason, my movement patterns were not to the power athlete standards. Just like John said in the video, a person can have a base level of strength and still be an amateur because they have not trained from the perspective power athlete views training. Those people will have the sensitive egos. So it will be a process of “slow and consistent mental manipulation, just like anal”, the “Brofessor” lol, to advance them to a trained athlete by power athlete standards.
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hahaha good call
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However I’ve got to say, I disagree with your first one; as being an asshole is not a specific trait of Amateur athletes.
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@nono I agree with what you just said but I think you missed my overall point on the first one. I am saying many novices or amateurs do not realize what they are getting into when starting an training program and may realize this is something they don’t see value in when they start. So their psychological approach to training is immature, they could be a great person they just are ready to embrace training and take it serious. We also have major asshole, but they train their ass off and have high psychological maturity when it comes to training specifically.
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@chobbs I have to agree with everyone that I like the addition of the proficiency of the 7 primal movement patterns. The first point you make is a good identifying tool, but it can also be a trap for some coaches if that is all they evaluate. I have had plenty of athletes/members that know their way around a gym, bar, are mentally ready. However from the stand point of the nervous system they are still very much an amateur. Now you listed 4 different criteria in your identification, so I am not say it was your only tool for evaluation. I just think a lot of coaches could mistake that for a trained athlete.
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I agree with @chobbs. Let’s say a new athlete shows up for a free trial class, If the warm up created for that day is written appropriately we should see with in a few minutes how they move, how they respond to our coaching(trainability), how they interact with other peers and so on. Zatsiorksy (page 12) Also talks about trainability being the first limiting factor in strength production. The potential to develop strength in response to a specific training regime and depends largely on genetic factors and pre-training status. But it goes beyond the physical realm, I also think trainability that, the ability to be trained or coached can be hindered on day to day basis. And how an individual copes with ones day. Other factors like stress and peer pressure. psychological maturity, focus, ability to grasp concepts and translate them into the training regime can be affected day in and day out. It is important to know your tools of the trade but also now your athlete (mentally and physically).
<p class=”p1″><span class=”s1″>Zatsiorsky (page 200): If young athletes do not understand why such programs are important or do not have the maturity to participate in a strength training program, success will be limited, and no young athlete should be forced to lift.</span></p>
<p class=”p1″><span class=”s1″>The ability of a coach to be able to connect with the athlete can bridge this gap. I have often kicked parents out of a training session so I can connect with the athlete on a more personal basis. This is a great way to deal with hyper parenting(or just punch them in the face as they leave the room). On the other side of the coin if they are not there mentally then we as coaches should be able to adapt and give them a type of training they can accomplish that day. I remember when training in high school(basketball) every time we looked a little tired, due to long periods of conditioning the coach would recognize the disengagement and let us just play. I thought that was genius back then and I still do that in daily basis.</span></p> -
I’m afraid I won’t provide any new point of view on this subject, but I think the most important characteristic that may help us identify Amateurs vs Trained athletes has been mention already by all my fellow comrades; and that is the stage of functional development they show.
As Siff and Verkhoshansky assert, improvements during the earlier stages of an athlete development are principally motivated by firstly functional factors (neuromuscular adaptations) “…it´s important to remember that improvements in strength among novice athletes are primarily produced thanks to a learning process which would be neuromuscular in nature” ( Siff and Verkhoshansky 2011), so by being specifically aware on the physical manifestations of that development, call it coordination, call it under the bar solvency or just as John does, “grinding” capacity we might get a good diagnostic regarding our athlete development level.
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For me the simplest way to identify if they are an Amateur is to put them on a Linear Progression regardless of what their training background is, unless they have explicitly told me they have done a LP and can go into full detail about it with me. As John brought up during the video past weight training does not equal a trained athlete. If you haven’t done a linear progression or a similar progressive overload system you are likely an amateur. Here is why I would say that this is the best identification tool. If about 4-6 weeks which Supertraining us is the intramuscular coordination phase and they are starting reach failure on their lifts already (this is provided there was a good starting point), then they are likely a trained athlete. Why because we know “The maximal force is achieved when (a) a maximal number of MUs is recruited (b) rate coding is optimal and (c) MUs are activated synchronously over the short period” (Zatsiorsky, 2006 p.65). I believe it was Luke that said, “Lack of coordination is what allows us to progress through the linear progression.” If the athlete has the necessary inter/intra muscular coordination that we are looking for they won’t survive very long on the program. If they are lacking the necessary inter/intra muscular coordination then they be able to continue to progress on and we know that they are an Amateur/Novice athlete. I have had a number of older athletes some of them collegiate athletes who I have thrown on the Linear Progression and they have been able to ride it out full term. To me this says that their inter/intra muscular coordination hadn’t been optimized.
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Nice Carl! No bullshit, this is what you are going to do. Eliminates a ton of false-positives
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Gold! @carlcase. I agree completely and the reason is I was that guy. When I was in the process of opening my gym I had fallen off pretty considerably. @mcquilkin told me to jump on the amateur progression and ride it out. I was on that thing grinding it out for over 3 months. I clearly had not “optimized” my inter and intramuscular coordination as I saw gainzzzz that I hadn’t had in years. The proof for me is I can get back to those numbers with relative ease now, even if I’m a little detrained. The other way of knowing I’m no longer an amateur is I’m deathly afraid of following a straight linear progression because I know the pain waiting for me.
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I do not want to be redundant (but I’m going to be) but my belief of being able to identify an amateur athlete is based off the eye test. I know it is not scientific but to a trained coach, and we all are, it doesn’t take long to recognize amateur shit when you see it. It starts with what @chobbs presented which is the demeanor of the athlete; how serious they are about training, how well they take instruction, even wanting to be there. If that is not present everything else doesn’t matter. Once that is established you make sure they can move, as @hashaw stated that should be taken care of with the warm up, and if that checks out get them under a bar. If they lack coordination or proper movement patterns that is signal, if not it’s time to go on a linear progression. I do what @carlcase does and put everybody at my gym, until you prove otherwise (ie failure), on a linear progression. I saw the benefits of the amateur template and I was further along at that time than many of my members. It’s anecdotal I know, but that doesn’t mean it is wrong.
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