Week 4: Discussion A

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This topic contains 27 replies, has 11 voices, and was last updated by  Nono 9 years, 10 months ago.

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  • #393

    DD
    Participant

    One that I see all the time in a clinical setting is the Functional Movement Screen by Dr Gray Cook.

    This is a series of 7 exercises that are designed to assess for limitations in mobility and stability.

    As you can see above the benefits, as they say,  are listed.  By looking at the pictures you can easily tell the faults in these tests.  First off, none of the tests are done in positions that are reproduced in exercise or sport.  The squat is too narrow, the lunge is atrocious, on and on.  Also, nothing is assessed while the athlete is getting into these positions.  Second, the use of the equipment is awkward and limiting for everything being measured is in a straight line with feet together.  Third, this test is not to be used if the athlete is experiencing pain, there is another Cook test for that, the SFMA (Selective Functional Movement Assessment). I have seen plenty of athletes who have faults/limitation scores on this test that perform without issue on the field.

     

    • #398

      DavidMck
      Participant

      One of the biggest issues I had with this assessment when I attended the seminar was that they one, seemed to set you up for failure to prove that you needed their corrective exercises. The squat was almost so narrow that it was impossible to achieve the movement and you would inevitably recieve a 1 or 2. Second, they provide zero instruction on how to actually perform the movement, again, to seemingly set you up for failure. I saw at least 30 people receive a 1 on a particular movement but after 10 seconds of explanation in the correct movement patterns they immediately scored 2’s and 3’s. My last issue with this one is that it is incredibly subjective. The different between a “low” 2 and a “high” 2 is huge!. You could perform the movement almost perfectly and receive a 2, and another person would be near failure and also receive a 2. Also, there didn’t seem to be any real standard, one person would interpret the movement as a 3, another person watching the same movement would score it a 2. Plus they repeatedly poopooed overhead pressing and barbell squats.

    • #400

      Ben Kucharik
      Participant

      You beat me to it. Probably the most well know movement assessment out there. It was the only one we ever talked about back at ASU. Most of my upper division professors were editors for ACSM so that’s what they always taught from. We had a teaching assisstant, who didn’t know shit, teach us the FMS in school. We all had to do it ourselves and I couldn’t help but think “this is fucking stupid”. It’s a cool way to sell people bull shit and make them attend a cert but it feels like they’re just stealing people’s money. I remember the assessment is suppose to lead you into “corrective” exercises to use to program. Dave made the important point that it is easy to fix yourself on the movement in less than 5 mins and pass the test because they never teach you how to do it.

      • #403

        chobbs
        Participant

        I think it is safe to say we all would have put FMS right away, good stuff @menacedolan for being first! Everyone has made great points that I agree with so far. I will not echo the same things so I would just like to add on top that this is a screening that is largely “learned” much like that of ladder drills. You can essentially practice this test and game it by putting yourself in a “compensated” position in other areas of the body but still receive a higher score for what the test looks for and this can be done in a matter of days, so now supposedly you scored higher on the test and you have greatly decreased your chance for injury…yank. It’s a very limiting test that doesn’t look at the body as a whole during movements. Battle Bullshit.

      • #405

        DD
        Participant

        I am so glad to see that you all have seen through this.  At KU in 1997-98, during my classes my Head ATC and all of my Professors saw right through it and therefore never taught it and used it as an example of “toys for profit”.

  • #401

    Ben Kucharik
    Participant

    I chose to use an assessment we use in the Army the Army Physical Fitness Test… Shocker, I know.

    I will go over the standards, benefits and barriers to this assessment.

    First are the standards. You can find pictures in Appendix A of FM 7-22. If you google it, you’ll find it.

    APFT OVERVIEW A-1. The APFT provides a measure of upper and lower body muscular endurance. It is a performance test that indicates a Soldier’s ability to perform physically and handle his or her own body weight. Army Physical Fitness Test standards are adjusted for age and physiological differences between the genders.

    FITNESS STANDARDS A-2. The APFT consists of push-ups, sit-ups, and a 2-mile run—done in that order—on the same day. Soldiers are allowed a minimum of 10 minutes and a maximum of 20 minutes rest between events. All three events must be completed within two hours. The test period is defined as the period of time that elapses from the start to the finish of the three events (from the first push-up performed to the last Soldier crossing the finish line of the 2-mile run event).

    A-3. In accordance with AR 350-1, all Soldiers must attain a score of at least 60 points for each event and an overall score of at least 180 points. Soldiers in BCT must attain 50 points in each event and an overall score of 150 points. The maximum score a Soldier can attain on the APFT is 300 points. The use of extended scale scoring IS NOT authorized.

    Push up performance measures:

    “THE PUSH-UP EVENT MEASURES THE ENDURANCE OF THE CHEST, SHOULDER, AND TRICEPS MUSCLES. ON THE COMMAND, ‘GET SET’, ASSUME THE FRONT-LEANING REST POSITION BY PLACING YOUR HANDS WHERE THEY ARE COMFORTABLE FOR YOU. YOUR FEET MAY BE TOGETHER OR UP TO 12 INCHES APART (MEASURED BETWEEN THE FEET). WHEN VIEWED FROM THE SIDE, YOUR BODY SHOULD FORM A GENERALLY STRAIGHT LINE FROM YOUR SHOULDERS TO YOUR ANKLES. ON THE COMMAND ‘GO’, BEGIN THE PUSH-UP BY BENDING YOUR ELBOWS AND LOWERING YOUR ENTIRE BODY AS A SINGLE UNIT UNTIL YOUR UPPER ARMS ARE AT LEAST PARALLEL TO THE GROUND. THEN, RETURN TO THE STARTING POSITION BY RAISING YOUR ENTIRE BODY UNTIL YOUR ARMS ARE FULLY EXTENDED. YOUR BODY MUST REMAIN RIGID IN A GENERALLY STRAIGHT LINE AND MOVE AS A UNIT WHILE PERFORMING EACH REPETITION. AT THE END OF EACH REPETITION, THE SCORER WILL STATE THE NUMBER OF REPETITIONS YOU HAVE COMPLETED CORRECTLY. IF YOU FAIL TO KEEP YOUR BODY GENERALLY STRAIGHT, TO LOWER YOUR WHOLE BODY UNTIL YOUR UPPER ARMS ARE AT LEAST PARALLEL TO THE GROUND, OR TO EXTEND YOUR ARMS COMPLETELY, THAT REPETITION WILL NOT COUNT, AND THE SCORER WILL REPEAT THE NUMBER OF THE LAST CORRECTLY PERFORMED REPETITION.” “IF YOU FAIL TO PERFORM THE FIRST 10 PUSH-UPS CORRECTLY, THE SCORER WILL TELL YOU TO GO TO YOUR KNEES AND WILL EXPLAIN YOUR DEFICIENCIES. YOU WILL THEN BE SENT TO THE END OF THE LINE TO BE RETESTED. AFTER THE FIRST 10 PUSH-UPS HAVE BEEN PERFORMED AND COUNTED, NO RESTARTS ARE ALLOWED. THE TEST WILL CONTINUE, AND ANY INCORRECTLY PERFORMED PUSH-UPS WILL NOT BE COUNTED. AN ALTERED, FRONT-LEANING REST POSITION IS THE ONLY AUTHORIZED REST POSITION. THAT IS, YOU MAY SAG IN THE MIDDLE OR FLEX YOUR BACK. WHEN FLEXING YOUR BACK, YOU MAY BEND YOUR KNEES, BUT NOT TO SUCH AN EXTENT THAT YOU ARE SUPPORTING MOST OF YOUR BODY WEIGHT WITH YOUR LEGS. IF THIS OCCURS, YOUR PERFORMANCE WILL BE TERMINATED. YOU MUST RETURN TO, AND PAUSE IN, THE CORRECT STARTING POSITION BEFORE CONTINUING. IF YOU REST ON THE GROUND OR RAISE EITHER HAND OR FOOT FROM THE GROUND, YOUR PERFORMANCE WILL BE TERMINATED. YOU MAY REPOSITION YOUR HANDS AND/OR FEET DURING THE EVENT AS LONG AS THEY REMAIN IN CONTACT WITH THE GROUND AT ALL TIMES. CORRECT PERFORMANCE IS IMPORTANT. YOU WILL HAVE TWO MINUTES IN WHICH TO DO AS MANY PUSH-UPS AS YOU CAN. WATCH THIS DEMONSTRATION.”

    Sit Up Performance measures:

    “THE SIT-UP EVENT MEASURES THE ENDURANCE OF THE ABDOMINAL AND HIP-FLEXOR MUSCLES. ON THE COMMAND ‘GET SET’, ASSUME THE STARTING POSITION BY LYING ON YOUR BACK WITH YOUR KNEES BENT AT A 90-DEGREE ANGLE. YOUR FEET MAY BE TOGETHER OR UP TO 12 INCHES APART (MEASURED BETWEEN THE FEET). ANOTHER PERSON WILL HOLD YOUR ANKLES WITH THE HANDS ONLY. NO OTHER METHOD OF BRACING OR HOLDING THE FEET IS AUTHORIZED. THE HEEL IS THE ONLY PART OF YOUR FOOT THAT MUST STAY IN CONTACT WITH THE GROUND. YOUR FINGERS MUST BE INTERLOCKED BEHIND YOUR HEAD AND THE BACKS OF YOUR HANDS MUST TOUCH THE GROUND. YOUR ARMS AND ELBOWS NEED NOT TOUCH THE GROUND. ON THE COMMAND, ‘GO’, BEGIN RAISING YOUR UPPER BODY FORWARD TO, OR BEYOND, THE VERTICAL POSITION. THE VERTICAL POSITION MEANS THAT THE BASE OF YOUR NECK IS ABOVE THE BASE OF YOUR SPINE. AFTER YOU HAVE REACHED OR SURPASSED THE VERTICAL POSITION, LOWER YOUR BODY UNTIL THE BOTTOM OF YOUR SHOULDER BLADES TOUCH THE GROUND. YOUR HEAD, HANDS, ARMS OR ELBOWS DO NOT HAVE TO TOUCH THE GROUND. AT THE END OF EACH REPETITION, THE SCORER WILL STATE THE NUMBER OF SIT-UPS YOU HAVE CORRECTLY PERFORMED. A REPETITION WILL NOT COUNT IF YOU FAIL TO REACH THE VERTICAL POSITION, FAIL TO KEEP YOUR FINGERS INTERLOCKED BEHIND YOUR HEAD, ARCH OR BOW YOUR BACK AND RAISE YOUR BUTTOCKS OFF THE GROUND TO RAISE YOUR UPPER BODY, OR LET YOUR KNEES EXCEED A 90-DEGREE ANGLE. IF A REPETITION DOES NOT COUNT, THE SCORER WILL REPEAT THE NUMBER OF YOUR LAST CORRECTLY PERFORMED SIT-UP. IF YOU FAIL TO PERFORM THE FIRST 10 SIT-UPS CORRECTLY, THE SCORER WILL TELL YOU TO ‘STOP’ AND WILL EXPLAIN YOUR DEFICIENCIES. YOU WILL THEN BE SENT TO THE END OF THE LINE TO BE RE-TESTED. AFTER THE FIRST 10 SIT-UPS HAVE BEEN PERFORMED AND COUNTED, NO RESTARTS ARE ALLOWED. THE TEST WILL CONTINUE, AND ANY INCORRECTLY PERFORMED SIT-UPS WILL NOT BE COUNTED. THE UP POSITION IS THE ONLY AUTHORIZED REST POSITION. “IF YOU STOP AND REST IN THE DOWN (STARTING) POSITION, THE EVENT WILL BE TERMINATED. AS LONG AS YOU MAKE A CONTINUOUS PHYSICAL EFFORT TO SIT UP, THE EVENT WILL NOT BE TERMINATED. YOU MAY NOT USE YOUR HANDS OR ANY OTHER MEANS TO PULL OR PUSH YOURSELF UP TO THE UP (REST) POSITION OR TO HOLD YOURSELF IN THE REST POSITION. IF YOU DO SO, YOUR PERFORMANCE IN THE EVENT WILL BE TERMINATED. CORRECT PERFORMANCE IS IMPORTANT. YOU WILL HAVE TWO MINUTES TO PERFORM AS MANY SIT-UPS AS YOU CAN. WATCH THIS DEMONSTRATION.”

    2 Mile Run performance standards:

    “THE 2-MILE RUN MEASURES YOUR AEROBIC FITNESS AND ENDURANCE OF THE LEG MUSCLES. YOU MUST COMPLETE THE RUN WITHOUT ANY PHYSICAL HELP. AT THE START, ALL SOLDIERS WILL LINE UP BEHIND THE STARTING LINE. ON THE COMMAND ‘GO’, THE CLOCK WILL START. YOU WILL BEGIN RUNNING AT YOUR OWN PACE. TO RUN THE REQUIRED TWO MILES, YOU MUST COMPLETE THE REQUIRED 2-MILE DISTANCE (DESCRIBE THE NUMBER OF LAPS, START AND FINISH POINTS, AND COURSE LAYOUT). YOU ARE BEING TESTED ON YOUR ABILITY TO COMPLETE THE TWO-MILE COURSE IN THE SHORTEST TIME POSSIBLE. ALTHOUGH WALKING IS AUTHORIZED, IT IS STRONGLY DISCOURAGED. IF YOU ARE PHYSICALLY HELPED IN ANYWAY (FOR EXAMPLE, PULLED, PUSHED, PICKED UP AND/OR CARRIED), OR LEAVE THE DESIGNATED RUNNING COURSE FOR ANY REASON, THE EVENT WILL BE TERMINATED. IT IS LEGAL TO PACE A SOLDIER DURING THE TWO-MILE RUN AS LONG AS THERE IS NO PHYSICAL CONTACT WITH THE PACED SOLDIER AND IT DOES NOT PHYSICALLY HINDER OTHER SOLDIERS TAKING THE TEST. THE PRACTICE OF RUNNING AHEAD OF, ALONG SIDE OF, OR BEHIND THE TESTED SOLDIER WHILE SERVING AS A PACER IS PERMITTED. CHEERING OR CALLING OUT THE ELAPSED TIME IS ALSO PERMITTED. THE NUMBER ON YOUR CHEST IS FOR IDENTIFICATION. YOU MUST MAKE SURE IT IS VISIBLE AT ALL TIMES. TURN IN YOUR NUMBER WHEN YOU FINISH THE RUN AND GO TO THE AREA DESIGNATED FOR RECOVERY. DO NOT STAY NEAR THE SCORERS OR THE FINISH LINE AS THIS MAY INTERFERE WITH TESTING.”

    Benefits:
    The benefit to administering this test is the lack of equipment makes administration easy. Other than administrative things, I find it hard to identify many other benefits.

    Barriers:
    This assessment is supposed to measure one’s physical fitness. A major barrier we see all the time is the scoring standards between genders. A minimum passing score for a 22-26-year-old male is 40 push ups. For the minimum passing score of a female in the same age group is 17 push ups. That is a huge difference even with physiological differences in gender considered. the test allows for poor movement patterns for Soldiers to gain an advantage over the system. We see soldiers with super wide hand placement on their push-ups to try and gain an advantage so they don’t have to move their body as much the flex and extend the elbow. even though they make a good effort to make it level across the army, we still have environmental factor affecting Soldier’s performances. One I see all the time in Colorado is the altitude. New Soldiers to the post have a hard time adjusting and in effect they have their run time decrease.

    • #408

      DavidMck
      Participant

      This one get me, I am not in any way a part of the US military but I do/have worked with a lot of active and retired guys. I never understood why this test was the go to, and why so many people struggle with it. Knowing what active duty guys go through down range and what the demands on their fitness are this test always seemed to be lacking a bit… I actually like the push up, sit up, run test but wish there was a bit more. I never understood why a timed ruck march wasn’t part of this test, as well as some more rigorous PT. The ruck march would be easy to measure and a standard could definitely be upheld. I suppose though they want to find a balance between allowing as many guys as they can to pass to keep up numbers and making the test difficult enough that any joker off the street wont be able to pass. I would like to see a 5-10mile ruck march added to this, maybe 15min/mile pace, as well as some sort of welcome party type PT just to test mental fortitude and willingness to suffer a bit, just a teeny tiny kick in the nuts.

  • #404

    chobbs
    Participant

    I will go a different route and not sure if this is the intention of the question but it wasn’t specific to just a movement assessment, so I will lay out a “performance” assessment. We see it a TON with our high school football and baseball athletes and that is performance combines. Football seems to rely on these the most mainly due to the fact that there aren’t a whole lot of off-season league like AAU basketball and baseball. Aside from the 7 on 7 stuff football does, the combines carry a ton of weight. Common Combines include:

    40yd Dash: This is a great way to see straight up raw speed. The main problem I have with this assessment is that the athletes do not go out of their stance on the field. But all in all this is a great way to see running mechanics and flat out speed.

    5-10-5 Drill: This is a drill intended to see lateral quickness and change of direction ability. While it can be beneficial for seeing what it is intended for and the mechanics of how an athlete changes direction it is a drill that is practiced and set pattern is determined. Sport is never a set pattern. Reactive agility tests would be much better, however, the flaw behind that is it takes away an exact “level” playing field for the assessment.

    3-cone L-Drill: This drill test a little more changes in direction than the 5-10-5 but my comments on this can be echoed from the previous one.

    Vertical Jump: Jump and touch as high as you can and measure the difference from your standing reach to the highest point touched. This is a great drill to test power and explosiveness and an athlete’s potential to display how high they can jump. Rarely do we see an athlete get to take their time to load up and jump in sport in a not reactive way, but this does tell us if an athlete can get up or not plain and simple. Side note: A good coach can see landing and jumping mechanics and possibly see risk for injury and limiting factors. Think about the infamous RG3 knee knocking position from his combine.

    http://static1.squarespace.com/static/5160bb45e4b0e13a258812c8/t/546e14e0e4b0f81008bb0669/1416500448964/

    Broad jump: Jumping horizontally. Everything else from the vertical can be echoed.

    Bench Test: High usually breaks this down by age and weight class or gives athletes options on what weight they will select based on 3-4 predetermined weights. For the sake of simplicity we’ll use the NFL 225 rep max test. This is a great drill for seeing how many times you can bench 225….that’s all I got. I think a much more applicable and transferable test would be to do a 3 rep max and a 5 rep bench at 225 or another weight hooked up to the Tendo unit to measure bar speed. Also, hand placement should be considered on what would transfer as far as where you block from, many athletes will go as wide as allowed in order to cut the distance the bar travels down to push out a few more reps. Side note: the NBA does theirs at 185, Kevin Durant didn’t get 1 rep. He was rookie of the year and MVP of the league…

     

    While the combine is a descent test to see athletic potential of an athlete it can be, and is, very overrated. With so much of it able to be practiced and not reactionary like sport, it can be very ineffective at times. It unfortunately takes away from time to practice skill and legitimately train to practicing set movements patterns and things that aren’t producing a better athlete.

    • #409

      DavidMck
      Participant

      Two things, I stopped using the Vertical jump becuase without a vertec jump tester I just found it difficult to measure accurately. I now just use the standing long jump as my test for power and explosiveness.

       

      Secondly, how the fuck did no one, at any point, grab RG3 and fucking help him. The entire Washington R. staff should be fucking removed. That shit is unreal.

      • #412

        Ben Kucharik
        Participant

        @train608 I would assume people didn’t fix RG3 because they either didn’t know or they saw how great of an athlete he was and didn’t want to be the guy who fixes him and sees his vert decrease. I had a football coach tell me once “you don’t want to be the guy who makes Ted Williams a .200 hitter”. Pretty much saying if it ain’t broke don’t fix it.

        @chobbs I agree the combine is overrated. we see athletes not get invited or do poorly still have a successful career. People once said Jerry Rice was too slow when he only ran a 4.5. Then we see the Raiders get super geeked out on the numbers and take athletes like Jamarcus Russell, Hayward-Bey, and Bruce Campbell who lit up the combine and fail miserably.

      • #415

        DavidMck
        Participant

        @benkuch, an unwillingness to step in on something like that IMO is an incredible misstep from a coaches perspective. No athlete should be above constructive criticism, practice, or correction. In the case of RG3, “if it aint broke dont fix it”, was the worst thing that could have happened to him. Someone could have saved his career.

         

        I met a woman at my FMS certification who worked with Washington as a PT, she said when she was talking with their strength coach one day he didn’t understand internal and external rotation, not sure if its true or not but i’d believe it.

      • #416

        Ben Kucharik
        Participant

        I agree and I’d also believe it.

        I have met more people in this industry who don’t know what they fuck they are doing than people who do. It’s frusterating but that’s why we’re here learning, to be able to battle the bull shit.

      • #428

        DD
        Participant

        RGIII’s problems started at Baylor, everyone there should be fired as well.

         

      • #446

        Carl Case
        Participant

        to pile on the combine/RGIII discussion coaches/evaluators just look at the number on the paper to create their evaluation of a player. There should be equal value on not only the result of the test but the stuff that happened between the start and the end of test, i.e the quality of movement. everyone wants to say they have a kid that squat X, run X, or jump X, but pay no attention to the quality of movement which will tell you a lot more then just the number. If you are going to drop millions of dollars on RGIII why wouldn’t you protect your investment by gleaning all the information possible

  • #410

    DavidMck
    Participant

    Well, I just wrote for 25 minutes only to have everything deleted because my page reloaded… Fuck… here goes take 2.

    Multi Stage fitness test, or the BEEP test. Specifically when used to assess individuals ability to be USA rugby Referees.

    My reasoning for choosing this is twofold, I work with an athlete who is currently working toward her C1, and beyond. I have some familiarity with her, her training, her capabilities and her attempts at this assessment.

    Two, I do not think this is an appropriate assessment for USA rugby Sir’s.

    As a sir you are expected to follow play as closely as possible, maintaining stride with the athletes or following close behind. Play typically develops over a few minutes with brief rises and falls in intensity of play. Rarely does running happen longer than 1 min at a time. Because of this I would expect an assessment to test an athletes ability to perform numerous sprints of varying distances, as well as cover some longer distances over extended time.

    I would like to see an assessment that included:

    20yd flying start

    30yd flying start

    40yd flying start

    300yd shuttle test

    Or the

    Rugby union fitness test

    Advantages: can be done anywhere with minimal equipment. Cones, audio recording, stop watch. Good indicator of aerobic ability. can test multiple athletes at once.

    Disadvantages: (in Relation specifically to USA rugby Ref.) Only a good indicator of endurance ability. Does not account for COD or speed.

    • #430

      DD
      Participant

      Change of direction upon command is key with keeping up with play.  Modifying the beep test to be sporadic with the beeps and at different distances would be helpful as well.

    • #443

      Carl Case
      Participant

      I agree that some sort of COD should be accounted for as well as sprinting speed. Especially at the higher levels of play, you are going to have to keep up with some freaks. If you can’t keep up then the calls you are going to make will be compromised because you are likely out of position and don’t have the correct vantage point. I have noticed in the sport of rugby there is huge emphasis and weight on endurance while other more important metrics are overlooked. Its almost as their testing methods are suggesting endurance is king in rugby.

  • #431

    DavidMck
    Participant

    I feel like its just so outdated. considering how much we know and what the sport requires, you’d think they would adapt. Its actually been frustrating to train for as well. It falls outside of most of the adaptations I’m looking for. We’re having to train for speed, power, and COD for the actual reffing and endurance for the assessment used to choose sir’s. Aside from the physical contact sir’s and players should be capable of the same things.

  • #435

    Harry
    Participant

    Ok I’m going there and if I get Mark Rippetoe knocking on my door I’ll give him a hug and then it’s on!  Ha! This comes from the CrossFit Journal December 6, 2006, back when Rip as many others were still cool with Coach G.
    <p style=”margin: 0px 0px 1.4em; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-size: 1.4em; font-family: Georgia, Times, ‘Times New Roman’, serif; vertical-align: baseline; line-height: 1.3; color: #616161;”>The CrossFit Total reflects an athlete’s functional strength capacity more accurately than any other test, writes Mark Rippetoe, author of Starting Strength and owner of The Wichita Falls Athletic Club/CrossFit Wichita Falls.</p>
    <p style=”margin: 0px 0px 1.4em; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-size: 1.4em; font-family: Georgia, Times, ‘Times New Roman’, serif; vertical-align: baseline; line-height: 1.3; color: #616161;”>The CrossFit Total is the sum of the best of three attempts at the squat, the press, and the deadlift. All three lifts are done while standing on the floor. They require minimal and inexpensive equipment. They are not technique- dependent to the extent of the Olympic lifts, yet they require technical proficiency beyond mere passing familiarity. They are safe when performed correctly, since they can all be performed without spotters—alone in a garage if necessary.</p>
    <p style=”margin: 0px 0px 1.4em; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-size: 1.4em; font-family: Georgia, Times, ‘Times New Roman’, serif; vertical-align: baseline; line-height: 1.3; color: #616161;”>There is no time limit for each lift or for the length of the session in which they are all performed, but they must all be performed during one session—i.e., you cannot leave the area to rest or perform other activities between the three lifts.</p>
    <p style=”margin: 0px 0px 1.4em; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-size: 1.4em; font-family: Georgia, Times, ‘Times New Roman’, serif; vertical-align: baseline; line-height: 1.3; color: #616161;”>Anyone in a position to attempt a legitimate CrossFit Total should be familiar enough with their capabilities on the lifts to have a fairly good idea of just what might be possible for a one-rep max (1RM). This number is what you warm up intending to do. A meet situation will involve three attempts, and this is a good way to determine a true 1RM.</p>
    <p style=”margin: 0px 0px 1.4em; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-size: 1.4em; font-family: Georgia, Times, ‘Times New Roman’, serif; vertical-align: baseline; line-height: 1.3; color: #616161;”>The first attempt would be a weight you know you can do for a heavy set of three. The second attempt would be a weight you know without any doubt that you could do for a single, having just done the first attempt. And the third attempt is the weight you want to do, based on your performance on the previous two attempts.</p>
    <p style=”margin: 0px 0px 1.4em; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-size: 1.4em; font-family: Georgia, Times, ‘Times New Roman’, serif; vertical-align: baseline; line-height: 1.3; color: #616161;”>Here is a link for the CrossFit Total PDF there you will find the standards fot this Test : http://library.crossfit.com/free/pdf/52-2006_CFTotal.pdf</p>
    It was not until I went to the CFFB seminar when I realized how much more complete and structured was their total.  In the CFT they only cover 3 lifts: back squat, dead lift, press.  Where at the CFBT we cover 4 : backsquat, deadlift, power clean and  bench press.   The fact that 3 lifts are only used to create a profile of strength in an athlete is a big question mark in my book.  I think John hit a home run with the design of the CFBT <span style=”line-height: 1.5;”> making it more complete by adding the horizontal push and the dynamic movement of the power clean.</span><span style=”line-height: 1.5;”>  Another issue is  while there are standards in place, crossfitters have a way to find the “loop hole” in  those standards to squeeze that proverbial PR.  Who is judging the athlete and what is their standard and so on. </span>

    I believe that the CFT was designed to provide some sort of a Strength component  for people to work on those lifts. The problem with that is programming… Since its “constantly varied” how often this people are working on developing the strength to see increases in that total and also of all those athletes attempting the CFT … do they have a base level of strength?

    @chobbs what is AAU… yeah I’m asking vs googlin it .. 😛  Is there a sort of NBA combine? I thought they did have it and it was based on movement vs athleticism…

    @benkuch it is sad on how many horrible programs have been pushed into military training.  The only people affected are our soldiers.  It is so awesome to see the great opportunity you have to make a dent on quality programming and training.  Maybe one day we’ll have the Kuch test all over the DOD!

    • #444

      Tony Fu
      Participant

      While I agree that the adherence to the standards set forth is probably suspect, I don’t think the CFT is a bad assessment.  For a beginner athlete this test does cover our three basic movement patterns (squat, press, pull) and proficiency in these movements will transfer to sport via base level of strength.  I don’t like the lack of explosive movement, like we see in the CFF Total, but that’s why we’re in the Academy because PAHQ knows what’s up.

  • #438

    Tony Fu
    Participant

    So I’m going to take us on a road trip to you’vegottabeshittinmeville.  After a short google machine search of different assessment tools I came across this, http://breakingmuscle.com/strength-conditioning/ignite360-img-academys-new-test-for-assessing-athletes.  After reading this article I decided to do some more research and found their website, http://www.ignite360pt.com/, enjoy.

    Now to the question at hand the following is the a list of what each athlete is tested for: <strong style=”color: #555555; font-family: abel, sans-serif; font-size: 17.6px; line-height: 22.4px; background-color: #fcfcfc;”>broad jump, seated medicine ball throw, vertical jump, 5-10-5, 10-yard dash, 20-yard dash, dominant hand grip, 300-yard shuttle, and sit and reach.<span style=”color: #555555; font-family: abel, sans-serif; font-size: 17.6px; line-height: 22.4px; background-color: #fcfcfc;”> For musculoskeletal system and neuromuscular systems: t</span><span style=”color: #555555; font-family: abel, sans-serif; font-size: 17.6px; line-height: 22.4px; background-color: #fcfcfc;”>he pressing squat, rotational “T” balance, and push-up opposite test.  </span><strong style=”color: #555555; font-family: abel, sans-serif; font-size: 17.6px; line-height: 22.4px; background-color: #fcfcfc;”>Visual ability tests are also a part of the test and assess the six basic movements of the eyes, including horizontal saccade, vertical plane movement, and convergence/divergence or near/far testing.<span style=”color: #555555; font-family: abel, sans-serif; font-size: 17.6px; line-height: 22.4px; background-color: #fcfcfc;”> Finally, “</span><span style=”color: #555555; font-family: abel, sans-serif; font-size: 17.6px; line-height: 22.4px; background-color: #fcfcfc;”>To complete the entire examination, athletes also complete three online standardized tests.</span><strong style=”color: #555555; font-family: abel, sans-serif; font-size: 17.6px; line-height: 22.4px; background-color: #fcfcfc;”>The first test is mental toughness, which is based on a total of 35 questions to help determine an athlete’s attitude, concentration, effort, confidence, coachability, composure, and awareness. <span style=”color: #555555; font-family: abel, sans-serif; font-size: 17.6px; line-height: 22.4px; background-color: #fcfcfc;”>Nutrition is evaluated based on a food frequency questionnaire, which is a very simplified nutritional assessment. The results are expressed as a ratio of high nutrient/low energy density foods and low nutrient/high energy density foods. The result will give athletes a final “Diet Quality Ratio” that ultimately reflects the state of their current diet. Last, athletes are tested on their communication skills using a 25 question evaluation that assesses self-awareness, body language, humor, conversation, and interaction. Although these questionnaires may not be perfect, they are quick and easy standardized tests to help coaches determine where athletes might need improvement.”</span>

    I’ll give you a minute.

    I’m pretty sure this is where “battle the bullshit” applies.  This assessment is in my opinion at best superfluous and at worst a complete con job.  To be fair there are good aspects to this assessment tool ie vertical jump, 10yd & 20yd dash for straight line speed but it is lost in the shuffle of all the gimicky bullshit.  This is the kind of stuff that sets back quality programming and progression by selling people stuff they don’t need and tasks they can’t complete correctly.  The barriers for this testing is obviously the ability to administer this test (equipment needs, access to assessment tools, etc.) and the ability to interpret the findings requires you to be 4 different things; a strength coach, an eye doctor, a PT, and a psychologist.

    The one thing that I will give them credit for is that they’re looking at assessing an athlete in a more complete way.  As @chobbs said the combine is great for testing athletic potential but it doesn’t address athleticsm or the expression of it.  With this tool it is more complete but unnecessary except for elite/professional athletes.

  • #439

    Carl Case
    Participant

    This is Irelands Fitness foundation program that I received from an English coach we work with for rugby.

    Functional Competence Screening
    Test 1: Overhead squat
    Assessed on
    Do the feet turn outwards?
    Do the knees stay over the foot?
    Do heels lift from the floor?
    Does the buttock stay above knee level?
    Does the torso lean forward out of the base of support?
    Do the arms (or the broom handle) lean forward from the torso?

    Test 2: Prone Pillar
    Purpose:
    The propose of the screen is to assess the players core.
    Procedure:
    The screen is completed with the player wearing shorts, tee shirt and no shoes. The players elbows are placed under his shoulders and his feet and ankles are placed together. The player’s knees and hips are then raised of the ground and a straight line must run between the player’s ankles and shoulders. This straight line must be maintained as long as possible. The test is timed using a stop watch and begins when the players knees are off the ground and the body is aligned.
    The test ends when –
    (1) The body looses its rigidity (starts to shake or shifts position).
    (2) The alignment is lost ( The head drops, the hips raise towards the roof or lower towards
    the floor or the feet turn out ).

    Test 3: Single leg balance
    Purpose:
    The purpose of the screen is to assess balance and lower limb stability. When the players score is improved it will help reduce the number of recurring or new ankle sprains.
    Procedure:
    The assessment must be performed on a level surface. The player must stand on one leg with hands placed on his/her hips. The non-stance knee must be bent to 90.The non stance leg must be raised into the high knee running position with the toes curls towards the player. Eyes should be closed throughout the test and a stop watch is used to time the single leg stance. Compare left and right side with this test. The test ends when the player compensates.
    The test ends when –
    Any movement on the stance foot occurs – i.e. hopping, wobbling The non-stance leg touches the floor
    Hands move away from hips

    Capacity Tests
    Test 1: Vertical Jump
    Test 2: Standing Two Footed Broad Jump

    I do like how they are trying to take systematic approach to things. They are assessing an an array of things overhead flexibility, ankle, and hip flexibility, trunk stability, and balance. They also include two different test to asses explosiveness.

    For Functional Competence Screening they broke down all of the possible faults, however for the Capacity Tests they only talked about execution of the two jumps. They didn’t go into any possible faults that would occur, which I found odd. Since all sports are played dynamically you would also want to asses your players on how they moved during such movements, and not only during static or closed chained movements. The overhead squat is very much a skill and going to take time to develop competency in the movement. I think a simpler movement such as a deadbug takes very little instruction and would be easier to implement and tell you about as much as the overhead squat and pillar hold combined.

    • #440

      chobbs
      Participant

      @carlcase

      Relatively speaking I do like their approach more than many I have seen. But I think we can all agree it still lacks in the things you pointed out with leaving out possible faults in jumping and landing mechanics as in what to look for.

  • #441

    Denny K
    Participant

    I came across Ian McKeown’s AAA (Athletic Ability Assessment) protocol. It consists of isometric holds, bounding, lunging, single leg hopping, pull ups, and push ups. Aside from the lunging and single leg hopping, I think that the planking and overhead squat might be good tools to assess strength or mobility but not so much athleticism.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4275191/

  • #442

    Denny K
    Participant

    I never was a fan of Cook’s FMS either. To me it is more of a mobility assessment than functional movement assessment. The movements shown are horrible and are purposely narrowed to challenge mobility. Even in most functional movement that I coach narrow stances are almost never used. And if I ever seen an athlete lunge like he is proposing to a woman I would punch him in the dick (old school CFFB phrase there).

     

  • #445

    Conor Lynch
    Participant

    One thing to keep in mind with all of these resources is the difference between an assessment and a test.  Tex’s article on Plyometric Training: Assessment refers to assessments in this way: “The assessments discussed below will introduce movements, provide proper execution, as well as the faults to expect to see from many athletes.”

    Now that is particular to Tex’s intent, but I think that an assessment should give the coach insight into an athlete’s capacity for POSITION.  The CrossFit Total, a 40 yard dash or a broad jump are events that I would define as tests of capacity in strength, speed or endurance.

    I found a physical therapist who has his own system called the Dynamic Movement Assessment…which you have to pay a couple of hundred dollars for.  So the best I can provide is a .pdf which advertises his system and the technology you need to run it.

    http://www.aclprogram.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/3D_DMA-General.pdf

    The cool thing about this program is that athletes are able to test position dynamically as opposed to the static test the FMS provides.

    However, you need a computer, tv, a “skilled practioner” aaaaaaaaand an Xbox Kinect system.  Which means you can only put one athlete through it at a time.  Potentially information that is much more applicable than an FMS, but significant technology, financial and scalability limitations.

  • #447

    Nono
    Participant

    I remembered been taught at College that the most important, useful and objective tool to asses the fitness level of any potential client was the ACSM’s Physical Activity Readiness Questionnaire or simply known as the famous “Par-Q” https://www.acgov.org/wellness/documents/parQandSafety.pdf

    It goes without saying, of course, that I never considered it as a realistic tool to asses any athlete but just merely regular under fitted population…

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