Week 6: Discussion B – Power Athlete Academy

Tagged: Discussion, Week 6

This topic contains 20 replies, has 9 voices, and was last updated by Conor Lynch 9 years, 9 months ago.

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March 7, 2016 at 7:46 pm #596

Ben Kucharik
Participant

Safety in plyometrics is quite comical after I read more about it. Specifically referring to the end of the first paragraph in ST. The bottom line is that, people oppose plyometric training becuase of the types of ballistic activity. While ballistic activity happens in pretty much all field and area sports. They imply the ballistic movement in sport is safe but not in training (Siff, 2004, p.267).

A concern of plyomtric training is overload. Overload is “the imposition of too great of force at any given time” (Siff, 2004, p.267)”. Specifically with Power Athletes, we dont want to overload the system with ballistic movements while an athlete has trouble maintaining posture and position. This calls for simplifying the plymetric exercise to an individual to prescribe proper levels of volume and intensity according to the principle of gradual progressive overload and allow for adaquate recovery (Siff, 2004, P.267-268)
- March 8, 2016 at 2:08 pm #597
  
  DavidMck
  Participant
  
  I think one of the reasons why plyometrics has gotten a bad rap and been associated with injury is because of “overload” or the complexity of a particular movement, and its use with athletes who are not physically ready for such complex movement, especially when it comes to force reduction. Dipshit “coaches” think it looks cool and its something they can point to and show how smart they are, when in reality, there most likely causing harm, or lucking the fuck out because they aren’t injuring anyone.
March 8, 2016 at 2:24 pm #598

DavidMck
Participant

Speaking from personal experience, I tend to be pretty conservative with introducing stress and new movements to training simple because I know how easy it can be for someone to fuck themselves up doing the simplest of things, like rotating lunge jumps, or consecutive broad jumps because they have not developed sufficient intra/intermuscular coordination and strength. I try to put it into real simple terms, do no harm. your ego is not worth your athletes career. Asking athletes, especially kids, to perform movements like plyometrics, squatting with chains/bands, or going for 1rm when they have not first developed a base level of strength- Intra/inter, hypertrophy-, and sufficient coordination, mobility, etc is dangerous. Of course this all depends on what we are introducing and how, as Siff points out “any lack of safety in plyometrics training has more to do with inappropriate and ineffective prescription than this mode itself” (Siff, pg. 269) Are plyometrics bad for novice athletes, I would say no. Does it have to be implemented appropriately, absolutely. Is it typically, probably not.
March 8, 2016 at 7:36 pm #600
Conor Lynch
Participant
Thanks to @benkuch and @train608 for the start. I’ll try to address possible solutions for safely implementing plyometric training.

There are three categories of safety that I can think of:
1. Physical environment
  1. Do athletes have a safe area to perform and recover from explosive movements without coming in to contact with other athletes or equipment?
  2. Is there sufficient padding on landing surfaces to reduce injury if a jump is missed?
2. Motor Control
  1. Do athletes have an understanding of the positions that they need to start and finish in? Can they display mastery of those positions in an isometric state unloaded?
  2. Have athletes demonstrated the ability to maintain correct postures and positions while reducing force from an external load? While producing force against one?
3. Exercise Stimulus Prescription
  1. Is the intensity of each individual rep appropriate for the athlete’s capacity?
  2. Is the volume of total work small enough to allow for technical proficiency in the last rep?
  3. Is there enough rest in between work to allow for proper recovery?
Safety protocols:
1. Assume that your athletes are willfully incompetent and then baby proof the training area. Also, many of them will wear crappy shoes and should have exercises modified because they have no chance in Hades of stopping, changing direction or creating another explosive movement thanks to a complete lack of stability in their footwear.
2. Siff gives a set of guidelines on page 272 for plyometric work. He recommends a ‘good warm-up of the intensively involved muscles’ and that the ‘the initial posture with respect to the joint angles should correspond to the same position in which the working movement begins in the sporting exercise’.
  1. We can make plyometric training safer by addressing its demands in our warm-ups. Examples of this are:
    
    Deadbug — tie braced, neutral trunk to loaded hamstring and calf.
    
    Spiderman Inchworm — posture tied to knee over instep and opening of anterior hip on opposite leg
    
    See Saw Walk — braced, neutral trunk moving through space and loading the posterior chain with a neutral hip — add athletic position burpee to teach force reduction and landing mechanics
    
    Cocky Walk — as good a warm-up of intensively involved muscles as you’ll get
    
    Reinforcing the Universal Athletic Position as a default position as often as possible in force training via squat, power clean, slam ball, etc.
3. Workout structure
  1. Siff says that an initial rule should be no more than 5-8 repetitions in one set. And that rest is crucial in between sets. So a safe and prudent training stimulus can be maintained with the following ideas:
    
    Teach the starting and finishing positions first. Then allow the full movement to be performed.
    
    Reinforce proper mechanics in every movement you can find outside of plyometrics so that athletes can learn under reduced time, load and spatial demands.
    
    Perform plyometrics for quality position and explosiveness, not for time.
    
    Start with skips and hops for mastery before implementing sprints and jumps.
    
    Initial exercises should be as conservative as possible.
    
    Wait for increased display of speed and acceleration before changing the stimulus.
    
    No more than 2-3 sets of 5-8 reps.
    
    Rest periods of about 10 minutes between sets promote maximum power development.
    
    Increase height before increasing weight.
    
    Do NOT perform plyometric training if muscle, joint or tendon fatigue or soreness is present.
    
    Make jumping and landing the right way cool for your athletes. Celebrate athletes who move the right way. They should be able to perform with a sense of swagger, not with the scent of dog shit.
March 8, 2016 at 7:37 pm #601

DD
Participant

Safety concerns with plyometrics involve the ease of injury in the lower extremity with improper take off and more importantly landing. Valgus forces at the knee can cause a list of injuries to ligaments and cartilage within the synovial tibiofemoral joint and the stability of the patellofemoral joint as well. Looking at just the PF joint and working from the hip down, neuromuscular imbalances place high levels of stress on the quadriceps mm’ group when an athlete lacks the coordination to decelerate and eccentrically load the hamstrings. This knees forward landing recruits the quadriceps as the main deceleration mechanism and places high levels of stress on both the quadriceps tendon above the tibiofemoral jt and the patellar tendon below. Jumper’s knee or an inflammation of the patellar tendon is easily acquired with this landing mechanism. Staying at the patella-femoral joint, any internal or external rotation at the femur upon take-off or landing changes the line of pull of the quadriceps m’ and can allow the patella to sublux or dislocate from the patella-femoral groove. Even slight variations in lateral movement of the patella can set the athlete up for contusions to the articular surfaces, damage to this cartilage, or possible fracture and loose bodies within the joint itself. Improper mechanics of the PF joint can also lead to a softening of the articular cartilage on the posterior patella, chondromalacia patella. In the most severe and drastic of cases a complete shattering of the patella can occur when chronic stress reaches its threshold on bone irritation, the contractile force of take-off or landing improperly will shatter the patella, see KU BB player Roderick Stewart

http://images.morris.com/images/cjonline/mdControlled/cms/2009/01/04/265277786.jpg

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/attachment.php?attachmentid=77534&d=1207860072

Correct assessment, instruction, and reassessment of proper hamstring involvement is key in avoiding issues at the PF joint. Starting with the teaching and realization in the athlete of the Universal Athletic Position, addressing any mobility and flexibility issues in the hip musculature and knee joint with our DB/Spidey/SeeSaw complexes, paying attention to the growth pattern of the athlete, any predisposed congenital anomalies (ie Osgood-Shatters), introduction and focus on posterior chain dominance and working form through the LP to ensure working stability of the PF joint and surrounding musculature.
- March 9, 2016 at 5:12 am #607
  
  DavidMck
  Participant
  
  WHY with those photos man, WHY?!?!?
March 8, 2016 at 7:41 pm #602

Conor Lynch
Participant

@menacedolan Please, just for once, bring in new information and tell us something we don’t already know.
March 8, 2016 at 7:43 pm #603

Conor Lynch
Participant

@menacedolan I take it all back. I had to have someone else look at the pictures for me and still don’t feel right.
- March 8, 2016 at 7:55 pm #604
  
  DD
  Participant
  
  DBAP, there is no blood, no open fracture, no chunk of hardwood missing when the athlete’s openly fractured and dislocated ankle gouges a groove into the hardwood, no L shaped leg as he plants to jump and lands out of bounds. Just a nice ball peen hammer to the kneecap from interior forces.
March 8, 2016 at 8:42 pm #605
chobbs
Participant
“The discussion does not dismiss the risks posed by inappropriate or excessive use of plyometric training, but it stresses that it is not the inherent nature of plyometrics which may produce injury, but the manner in which it is used, as is the case with all forms of training.” (Siff, M. p.267) To me this quote says it all, any form of training comes with inherent risks. If training is not properly progressed then overall effectiveness is at risk, reaching top performance is not as likely, and higher possibility for injury ensues. To single out plyometrics as dangerous to train is one of the most idiotic statements anyone can make. The fact that they do carry a slightly higher risk for injury, given that all field and court sports have significant amounts of plyometric components related to them is even more of a reason you should train them in the weight room!

Safety concerns include posture and position, maintaining said posture and position during loading and landing, and paying attention to volume. Not to brown nose here but the power athlete progressions are spot on for teaching plyos.
- Teach proper posture and position. If one doesn’t know what position to land in or take off from they will never be effective and can risk injury.
- Landing in proper position, once it’s establish test it with depth lands from a low height.
- Alignment while jumping, or just another way of saying stay in the correct positions during the eccentric, amortization, and concentric phases.
- Prep work. “Supplementary and preparatory drills consist of weight training exercises to develop sufficient muscular strength, especially eccentric strength, and connective tissue strength and elasticity to handle the forces involved.”(Mcquilkin,T) 
- March 9, 2016 at 6:18 am #608
 
 DavidMck
 Participant
 
 “The discussion does not dismiss the risks posed by inappropriate or excessive use of plyometric training, but it stresses that it is not the inherent nature of plyometrics which may produce injury, but the manner in which it is used, as is the case with all forms of training.” (Siff, M. p.267) Exactly Chad. Like most things we do in the weight room, few of them post a risk if executed and implemented properly. I think an additional CON to plyometric training is that the proper implementation and execution of plyometrics relies heavily on coach- experience, communication, and ego…
 
 Like DD said
 
 “It is all or nothing with plyometrics, you cannot bail out. When this happens the inherent risk skyrockets. At any point during any bar exercise, there is an out by dropping the bar or dumping the weight away from the body. When you leave the ground in any aspect of plyometrics you have no choice but to fininsh and therefore increase the possibility of injury due to internal and external forces that vary in control with the amateur athlete.” 
 
 And because of this, proper implementation and execution is paramount, and unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your coach) relies solely on their knowledge and experience and whether or not they are willing to set their ego aside and acknowledge a lack of experience to save their athlete catastrophic injury either via training or competition.
 
 (https://powerathletehq.com/2014/12/17/power-coach-experience/)
March 8, 2016 at 9:21 pm #606

DD
Participant

Hobbs, slow down on the “most idiotc” aspect. Where in your gym does the most injury occur? Why are there specific articles about the high incidence of injury with jumping? It is all or nothing with plyometrics, you cannot bail out. When this happens the inherent risk skyrockets. At any point during any bar exercise, there is an out by dropping the bar or dumping the weight away from the body. When you leave the ground in any aspect of plyometrics you have no choice but to fininsh and therefore increase the possibility of injury due to internal and external forces that vary in control with the amateur athlete.

dude, you got a little……yeah something right……just a little smudge of fudge there….below your eyes but above your lip…..yeah just the tip…of your nose
- March 9, 2016 at 7:05 am #610
 
 chobbs
 Participant
 
 @menacedolan If something pertinent to sport comes with a higher risk of injury within the sport, such as plyometrics, then shouldn’t an athlete be trained on how to do it properly. I said:
 
 ” To single out plyometrics as dangerous to train is one of the most idiotic statements anyone can make.” 
 
 Notice I used the word “train”, not simply execute, workout with, be prescribed by a coach, but “train”. One needs to put them as a priority in there program under proper progressions to “train” them so the athlete can not only perform better with them, but cut the inherently higher risk for injury down. So if people say you shouldn’t “train” plyometrics, I will stick with my original statement is saying that is an idiotic thing to say.
- March 9, 2016 at 7:11 am #612
 
 chobbs
 Participant
 
 Also, knock on wood, in 3 1/2 years of the Athlete Factory not one athlete has been injured during plyometric training. In 7 years of our CrossFit gym we had one lady who is a marathon runner tear a muscle in the calf doing double unders. So far by “training” the plyo’s it has worked out well. I know your statement wasn’t assuming my gym or any of ours elicits injuries due to plyo’s but more so as a whole. This is understandable without competent coaches to train them. Furthermore, I also understand even with an competent coach shit still happens occasionally.
March 9, 2016 at 6:47 am #609

Harry
Participant

Since we all love beating a dead horse over and over and over again(cough@chobbs, cough, cough). My novice athletes are old people. In order to drive that accelerated adaptation we need to identify why are they training for? Some are(still… to my surprise) marathoners, others play tennis, skiing, most of them don’t care about performance in the field but performance in the bed room. It is our responsibility to introduce such training as plyometrics(Or power metrics as Siff calls it) with caution for young or old athletes. 

So with that said for me as a business owner safety is always king. It starts like this: Programming the full spectrum of what am I training them for.. a.k.a a goal in mind. With that goal in mind here comes the grunt work introducing several levels of the same exercise for people that can do it perfectly or people that cannot do it at all and how are we going to progress those athletes. 

Knowing the limitations of my athletes and what they can or cannot do is essential to programming a solid prep work(warm up) for the workout. I have people that have had ACL repairs, people that have had hip replacements, plantar fasciitis and so on. All these people are going to cringe when I tell them that we are working on jumping and sprint mechanics. If they have been introduced to a linear progression with gradual overload(creating a base level of strength) their tendons and ligaments will continue to get stronger over time, providing them with good mobility, stability, movement and primal proficiency through the planes of motion. 

Working on limiting factors through our assessment protocols and tools will make them generate a connection that is meaningful to performing these exercises correctly(perfect practice makes perfect). For example: high knees with toe up knee up(dorsiflexion), introducing cocky walks and different cadence of skips, connecting through the dead bug of maintaining that dorsiflexion, keeping the hamstring active at all times instead of bending the knee. 

The consistent drive for exceptional Posture and Position and the never ending reminder of a great Universal Athletic Position where toes are forward, trunk is tight, spine is elongated and posterior chain is engaged and primed for those movements or skills and provide a phenomenal platform to a safety environment for training powermetrics.

The biggest thing aside you knowing is they knowing, where are they in the competency level? where are they in the linear progression and how coachable and trainable are they?. Do you have the balls to tell them they can’t do this work because they are not ready and give them something to do that will drive that adaptation faster for them. This is where the 2nd level of coaching(which I think is actually tied up really close with the first one) comes in and shines through if you have made a connection with your athlete. Where they look at you and says yes coach and they do it because you have shown competency and care though tough love and GRADE A+ coaching.

Last but not least: Knowing the limitations of my location, gym or box is one of them. I know I have plenty of boxes different sizes to do three consecutive box drops at different levels just to name one. Also I know I can take them to the Krav Side for softer landings. 

Bottom line like most of you said the benefit to this training out weight the negatives. It is not on how only on how the house looks but how you built the structure of that house to withstand anything!
March 9, 2016 at 7:06 am #611
Tony Fu
Participant
The efficacy of plyometric training has been established, even with respect to the novice athlete. Ballistic activity is part of sport and to neglect training it in the weight room is at best a disservice and at worst lazy. When thinking about plyometric training with respect to novice’s two words come to mind progression and implementation.

First and foremost progression is necessary to minimize injury risk as well as promote good coordinated movement patterns that contribute to a solid base of strength. We all know the base level of strength to be the foundation that our athleticism is built on and part of that is mastery of the primal movement patterns and defaults (UAP) set up to safely and powerfully create and reduce force. Properly progressing through plyometric program does just that. @conorwlynch nailed it with, ”
This is the ultimate statement of progression – get your athlete’s to understand expectations, make them express competency (stability) then let them go. As a power coach we must manage volume, properly prescribe intensity, and coach the shit out of their posture and position. Understanding the purpose, benefits, risks, and techniques of plyometrics, and communicating that with your athletes, will allow for a successful program.

The other factor, and one that is a bigger problem in my mind, is the implementation of good program. @train608 talks about “dipshit coaches” using programs and movements that could cause more harm than good. My man Siff says, “Complexity of drills, and apparatus often seems to replace optimal simplicity, technical correctness and elegance” (267). Right on Mel. The beauty is in the simplicity, the ability of a coach to see and teach proper take off and landing, knowing that more is not always better, that rotating 1 legged box jumps with a twist will never compete with a well executed vert or broad jump. In the end the only person who has anything to lose is the athlete.
- March 9, 2016 at 7:57 am #615
  
  Carl Case
  Participant
  
  A common theme here is that the coach can be the athletes greatest limiting factor with regards to their improper implantation, or choice to completely omit it. Power athlete talks about the limiting factors in a coach 1) Laziness 2) Lack of Knowledge 3) Ego. All of these could be in play to some degree with these two situations.
March 9, 2016 at 7:12 am #613

Carl Case
Participant

One of the biggest safety concerns would just have to be the shear force that can be generated during the eccentric phase. Fred Hatfield points points out that an athlete can eccentrically lower 40-50% more then what they can concentrically lower. Because of the higher loads that eccentric contraction can experience it is crucial that we teach our athlete the positions that they are to receive these loads in.

Another safety concern is coaches not taking into consideration what there athletes are doing outside of their gym walls. “More often than not, plyometric enthusiast do not consider the possibility that the athlete’s sport alone may offer all or most of the plyometric training that is necessary, and that adding more of this type of loading may be excessive or unwarranted” (Siff, 2009 pg.269). Currently I am working with a volley ball player. She has practices 2x a week, and has tournaments on the weekend. She is probably getting most of her needed plyometrics via that. The way that I address this is I focus the majority of our time on the force reduction, posterior chain recruitment, ankle/hip strength, and of course drilling the posture and position that is necessary to keep her safe.
- March 9, 2016 at 7:25 am #614
  
  chobbs
  Participant
  
  Nailed Carl. I deal with the same thing in basketball. Kids have AAU practice 2x/week and tournaments on the weekends of 5+ games. Your last sentence is spot on.
March 10, 2016 at 12:20 pm #622

Conor Lynch
Participant

http://www.stack.com/a/jump-4-to-8-inches-higher-with-these-vertical-jump-exercises?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=Newsletter&utm_campaign=Newsletter

Depth jump article. No progression or preparatory exercise.

An example of how intent and execution are points of emphasis that fall in the category of unconscious incompetence for many athletes.
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